Episode 68: Standing Up for Canada with Arlene Dickinson

For months, Canadians have had their elbows up, showing their commitment to choosing local, supporting homegrown business, and reinforcing the value of national unity. This renewed sense of economic patriotism has shaped our consumer habits and helped redefine what it means to be resilient during times of change.

Arlene Dickinson, a businesswoman, investor, author, and television personality on CBC’s Dragons’ Den, is outspoken about her support of Canada during the current political climate. She joins this episode of REAL TIME to share what patriotism means to her, how it affects the economy, and how we can continue to strengthen Canada as a country and business partner.

Transcript

Arlene Dickinson: Do I think we can do it? Yes. Do I think it's going to be hard? Yes. Do I think we're going to have to sacrifice? Yes. Do I think it's going to be worth it? A thousand percent yes.

Shaun Majumder: Elbows up, Canada. Yes, I know. We've heard a lot of that in the last year, and for a good reason, right? We're feeling this new mojo. Canada has got a new pair of slacks, red corduroys. We've got our cowboy boots by day and Birkenstocks at night. We're feeling it right now, and I love that. There is a bit of a movement happening, and it feels good. Today on the show, I'm being joined by none other than powerhouse Arlene Dickinson. Yes, you may know her from Dragons' Den. You may know her from the business community.

She is an absolute powerhouse, and she is one of the most proudest Canadians I've ever met. I'm so honored. She's on today. She's going to be talking about what patriotism means to her, how it affects the economy, and how to stay nimble as a business person in this ever-changing market. I am so honored. We both share very similar values about how much we love our country and the way forward. Let's get started today. Please welcome Arlene Dickinson. I am so excited. Arlene, look what I did. Look what I got. I didn't get it. My wife got it. Let me see if you can see it. Look at this.

Arlene: Nice. I like it.

Shaun: Value Village. Sweet deal. Listen, I don't know about you, but currently it feels like Canada got some mojo that I've not felt in my personal life, having lived away for the last 20 years, but obviously staying closely connected to Canada. There just seems to be this new thing happening in Canada. Do you feel it too? I'm so excited about souvenir shops I went in. I spent two grand US when I came back to Canada. I don't know. I'm feeling this new mojo for Canada.

Arlene: Yes. I think Canadians are finally feeling a lot in the shadow of any other nation and feeling much more confident. Although I think there's also a lot of fear out there and a lot of concern, and a lot of uncertainty. With uncertainty comes a lot of trepidation. I do feel like there's a renewed patriotism, which I really appreciate and is much needed. Our country deserves patriotism.

Shaun: Well, it's weird because for years, no matter how proud a Canadian I was, when I was starting my career here in Canada, I couldn't ever quite put my finger on what it meant to be Canadian. There was always the living in the shadow of our big brother to the South, so it was always in relation to that. Even our money was in relation to that. Now it feels like it's almost like we've hit our teenage years and we're all of a sudden fiercely independent, and we don't want to talk about it. Like, "Just leave us alone. We're fine on our own." This feeling that's happening in Canada, which I think is a good start, because I think we ought to remind ourselves we're a young country, right?

Arlene: Yes. I always said that we came to Canada, we're immigrants to the country, came when I was three years old. Why did we come to Canada? We came to Canada because it was a place where you could have a lot of ambition and be rewarded for that ambition if you worked hard. It was a place that welcomed you to do everything you could do to be able to be successful. That promise of Canada when we immigrated many years ago is what I think about when I think about what I want to hold onto in Canada, which is not the flag and the anthem.

Sure, they're great symbols of patriotism. To me, it's more about what the promise of the country is. The promise of the country for me is that I can be successful here if I work hard. I can find a way to take care of myself and my family. I also, if I am struggling, know that I'm going to be taken care of by my country.

That social capital view, which is capitalism with a heart, a democracy that cares about its citizens, a small nation in terms of numbers of people, but a huge nation in terms of geography, yet we still have all of the infrastructure and the needs that we should require in terms of being able to live a good life. Now we're going to put more money into infrastructure, and we're going to put more money into defense, and we're going to think harder about making sure we can stand on our own two feet. We absolutely can.

Shaun: When we talk about patriotism, when I think about from where I've just left to where I am now, the interesting difference is it feels to me that Canada-- we're not identifying ourselves as what we are not, but there seems to be a value system. That's what I'm hearing you talk about. It's more about a value versus I'm wearing a mask, which is this is my identity. It's more about the internal value system of Canada that is not as easily put on a bumper sticker. Do you know what I mean?

Arlene: I do. We've had to learn how to collaborate and connect with regional differences that exist in our nation. We've had to learn how to collaborate and work together with linguistic challenges, like different languages, not just French, English, but many languages from all around the world. We've had to learn how to accept a global view because we are compromised of a global view. That acceptance of different cultures and different understandings, yet all grounded in the same belief of what the promise of the nation is, I think that's what Canada represents. That gets me excited because I do think you're right.

It's not a slogan, although slogans like "elbows up" really helped, I think, to get people really more committed to buying Canadian and thinking Canadian and being proud of being Canadian. It's more about just protecting the things that we all are in Canada because of. That's a very important aspect of why I think this nation needs to stand tall because I think people around the world look at us to go, "I want that safety, I want that freedom, I want that peace, I want that natural beauty, I want that opportunity." There's so much that Canada can offer, and it makes me very proud.

Shaun: When we think about that idea of standing tall, standing tall and owning, that takes some time to have that self-confidence. When I think about being a dad now, and I want my girls to feel confident, I want them to feel strong and honour who they are. For many years as a comedian, I mean, we've spent so much of our lives being self-deprecating, which is a great way to be. I think culturally, it shows that we are humble, but all of a sudden, it's changed a little. We don't say we're the greatest country on earth because for whatever reason. I do believe now the tide has turned a little. What does it mean to you when you talk about standing taller? What does that actually mean without it being kind of egotistical and braggadocious?

Arlene: When I think about standing tall or standing up for our nation, I think about what did I do today to make our country better? We all care about legacy. We all care about leaving behind more than we take. That can happen in conversations like this, where you're talking to people and you're being unafraid to share your pride and your love for your country, because sometimes that was always seen as a little bit, not hokey, but really, we don't talk about that here.

Now, I think, I sign off all of my posts on social media with a heart and the flag because I do love Canada. I'm going to say I love Canada. I'm not going to be afraid to talk about it. Standing up is not being afraid to create a job, not being afraid to help a neighbour, not being afraid to take pride in what we have versus continually looking for what's wrong with what we have, because there's always going to be things that are not great.

Shaun: Yes. I think in any relationship or any self-realization, it's okay to observe where we can improve on. I think what people get so focused on and be critical of is that's who we are, as opposed to, "Hey, look, this country, again, is a young country, relatively speaking, and we are coming into our own now." That does excite me, and that's why I moved back. That's why I came back here now, to raise a family in this beautiful, beautiful place. There's nowhere else I'd rather be. That's, to me, what standing tall is. What was your take on the whole "elbows up" movement? That's the last time I saw you. We were there. It felt great, to be honest, at the time. Elbows up as a slang, as a thing, as a slogan. What was your feeling of that?

Arlene: First of all, I love that for Canada that you're back, and I love that for you that you're back. I think it's great for our nation to have creators and talented actors and comedians like you who are prepared to go on world stages and be proud to wear our flag. I think about Mike Myers and wearing the flag on SNL. I think about the moments where you can really demonstrate your pride on a global stage need to happen more and more.

Having said that, elbows up for me, I took a lot of slack from my friends around that. They thought it was like it's just a stupid slogan, and what does it mean? I kept saying to them, "You don't understand that people need something to rally around." Churchill, all the great leaders in the world have had some good ways to have people feel that no matter how hard things they're going to get, we're going to do this together. This was such a Canadian line, elbows up.

We all understood what it meant right away. We all understood that if we were in a corner or somebody was coming into our space, we were going to go elbows up. That's different than gloves off. I said that to everybody, like, "Listen, this is just us defending and being proud and standing for what we believe in. There's something really good about that, and there's nothing wrong with that." Like you at that event, I felt such enormous pride. It was so peaceful.

It was so joyous. You could feel the crowd's energy and enthusiasm for everybody who sang, spoke, entertained. It was wonderful. I think Peter and the organizers really understood how to capture a moment and help galvanize it into a movement. From a moment to a movement requires slogans and effort, and continuous pushing for an agenda that matters. My biggest fear is that Canadians-- we can get complacent quickly again. Do I really need to buy Canadian? The answer is, yes. You do.

Shaun: Yes, exactly. I find that whether it's a slogan or something that some people may find hokey or it's just a statement. I feel the cynicism obviously doesn't serve the greater good. People generally have that knee-jerk reaction. It's easy to do that, but even other people who slagged me for that same thing, I was like, "Call it what you will." It's not even about the combination of letters that made elbows up. It's about what was happening underneath, and we felt it. I think the nation felt it. I still, when I do my live shows, people are still screaming that out.

I think it's a great thing, regardless of the cynicism, and we can't let the cynicism poison it. You were talking about buy Canadian, you were talking about that. I think that was something that-- Can you actually explain to me how much of an impact that actually had? From a business perspective, when you were looking at numbers, when you're looking at economic impact, did it really work? Did it have an impact? What does it mean for the future?

Arlene: It did have an impact. First of all, you had buyers in retail chains who were purposely looking for Canadian-made goods. That in and of itself is a big business decision to make. That in and of itself helps businesses that are local become available and accessible to Canadians because they will be on shelf where they're not always on shelf across the country. It had a big business influence there. By making Canadian goods more visible, whether it's saying that you were made in Canada, produced in Canada, you actually helped grow businesses because those businesses then had revenue that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

I invested the agri food space. You actually elevated the fact that the food we're eating is safe, it's traceable for the most part. It's not always on a package, but you know if it's coming from your local area, where you know how it's made and who's making it, and what. You know that Health Canada and the regulatory environment we have is ensuring that there's no preservatives or additives or chemicals in there that are dangerous for us. There's things like that that make Canadian food safer, better, and healthier for you. That's part of it.

Shaun: When we talk about business, I mean, obviously, Arlene Dickinson, Dragon's Den, business, money, finances. We think about what does that mean for Canada as a whole, what the future of Canada is. I think I was reading somewhere, you described yourself as a heartless capitalist. No, wait now, capitalist with a heart. Very different. No, but very different.

Shaun: No, no, no, I'm kidding, of course. Tell me about that. How do you define a capitalist with a heart? Why do you need that with a heart?

Arlene: The first time I ever said those words, I think, was on Strombo's Show. I was being interviewed by him, and he was talking about capitalism. We were talking about some of the other dragons on the show. I said, "The difference is that I really believe in capitalism with a heart." What I mean by that is, what I said earlier, you can have ambition and strive to make money and to create jobs and to build something of value that's useful in the world and be rewarded for that.

At the same time, you can make sure that whatever you build is respecting the environment, is good for your neighbour, is helping your community, is paying fairly. The reason you have to give that descriptor is capitalism on whole is really regarded as a very evil endeavor that harms people. I don't think that is at all always true in any sense of the word, but there are large capitalists and people who make billions and trillions who are probably much more inclined to be about the money than they are about the good.

Shaun: That's a human issue, though, not necessarily a systematic issue.

Arlene: Well, it's both. You build a system to match your desires. You build your business to reflect your values. If your values are you don't care about people or your values are that you just want to make the most money you can possibly make, you build a system that rewards that. It is systemic because you're actually creating it. I posted about this the other day, Shaun. I was thinking about what is it we strive for.

When I think about Canada, this is a nation, as I said, that can let you be ambitious and take care of your neighbour, but it's also a country where you can be who you are and you can actually succeed at what you want to succeed at. You do understand that you're going to be able to survive whatever the challenges are. I think that's all great, but then you think about our nation and all the resources we have. It's wonderful that I can be all I want to be, and I can strive for what I want, and we've got social constructs that help people who are undervalued or underserved.

Then on top of that, we're sitting in some of the best land in the world. We have the best resources, the best minerals. We have 20% of the world's fresh water supply. We have enormous natural energy around us. That means that we can feed ourselves, clothe ourselves, shelter ourselves, and still be successful. There are many nations in this world that cannot do that. I'll give you an example. Singapore. Singapore is a fantastic country. Have you been there?

Shaun: I have. Off the charts.

Arlene: It's beautiful. It's safe. There's a lot of oversight on all of those things, but it's fantastic. 90% of their food is imported. They can't produce their own food because they don't have the physical land and the resources. Yet, it's one of the most successful nations in the world because it understood how to unleash human resources and how to trade its human resources effectively around the world. We have everything. What do we need? You want a house? We could build you one just based on our lumber, our steel, our resources here. That's what we need to focus on. I think that's what the government's trying to do right now.

Shaun: Yes. I remember, going back to what you were talking about, about financial success, that takes hard work. You're a living example of that where you came from-- I don't want to say nothing, but you came from very little, and boom, because of Canada, you were able to build. I think that there seems to be a sense in Canada, and you had spoken about this on another podcast I heard, where you're talking about the tall poppy syndrome. Now, tell me a bit about that and how Canada is a little bit, I wouldn't say guilty of it, but we have that thing that I feel like when we change that, it's going to help us grow as a country.

Arlene: Yes. We did come from nothing. We came to Canada with $50, literally, and we were living below the poverty line for a long time. Food was something that we couldn't get every week. We got it when we could afford it. Like new clothes, we went to whether Salvation Army or secondhand stores. We did all that. It was a tough life, but it is the life that I hold onto in my head now that I've had some success. I remember that little girl. I remember growing up, and when we could get groceries, feeling super excited about the fact that we had food on our table.

Shaun: Now, what city? I'm sorry, can you remind me? Paint the picture of your neighborhood. Where were you? What was outside your front door?

Arlene: We came to Canada. We went to Edmonton originally. We were in Edmonton for a few years. Then we moved to Calgary. Outside my front door, we were in rental properties for a few years. My dad finally got a job where he bought his first home. We bought our first home-- real estate's actually an important conversation we should have. We bought my father bought his first home in a neighborhood called Varsity Acres. Varsity Acres was the farthest community north in Calgary at the time.

Those of you who are listening who are from Calgary, you'll understand that now, probably it's considered inner city, almost, but back then it was way out. We paid $12,000 for that home. It was built by New West Homes. My dad was paying $120 a month for that place. Why do I remember that? I was young when he bought it. I was maybe six and a half, seven years old. He drilled into me how wonderful it was to live in a country where he could have a job and he could afford a mortgage that was going to put a roof over his kids' heads.

He wanted us to know that it was a sacrifice. For him to pay that $120 a month was not easy. It was very difficult for him. Yet, he did it because he cared about shelter, and he knew that Canada could help us get there. We always lived across from schools because my dad was an educator. I think he thought I'd get smarter if I lived across from a school. I don't know. I always lived across from a school. We grew up just understanding the value of a dollar and of hard work.

Shaun: I think in Canada, we do need to celebrate success. I think success can come in many forms as well. It doesn't have to be, "I've got a Lamborghini." No, success means taking chances, staying within Canada, sharing whatever your business that you're creating, helping out the larger community. Let's talk a bit about that right now. I want to get into the business side of things because businesses are hurting right now across the country, all over the world, in many ways, in North America. It's such a quick-changing landscape. How can these businesses/individuals who are driving these businesses, what do you think the key is to being resilient through this stormy time?

Arlene: Because I think persistence and resilience are trademark characteristics of successful entrepreneurs, I think to be resilient and persistent, you have to have hope and a vision for your future that you really believe in. I think right now what Canadians need to really believe in is a future that is democratic, free, and offers opportunity to all of its citizens. To believe in that, you have to suspend disbelief about things that could make you cynical, or the noise market that we hear on social media, or the things that people will say about how it's not possible.

Entrepreneurs hear it's not possible all the time. We hear constantly that you can't do it. If it was such a good idea, why hasn't somebody done it before? We hear all of those things, and yet we have this Teflon will to say, "I can't not do it. I have to do it. It's part of who I am." When I think about resilience for Canadians, I would tell Canadians to hold on to what you love about this country and believe that it can be more and better, and stronger, and that we have to believe in a future for it that is truly ours.

If you can do that, you will drive towards that. If you can say it out loud that you love this country and you believe in this country, and you can get past any government noise or noise about specific leaders you do or don't like, or specific policies you do or don't like, because you're always going to have those, if you can get past that and think about a future that you want to claim that you are part of and that you are proud of, you have to be resilient, and that means you have to believe. Belief and resilience are hand-in-hand for me.

Shaun: Almost like the rapidly changing-- What is the word? The game board is almost changing so fast with technology. Is Canada positioned, in your mind, to be able to keep up with that change? Are we economically able to keep up and, in fact, lead?

Arlene: The sure answer is yes, and also depends on what we want. If we want to hold on to the things we value, then absolutely we can, and we should. Canada can be a world leader in many respects. I think it's already a respected world leader when it comes to our values and our nation's goals and who we are and what we have, but if we believe that what we've got is second fiddle or not good enough, and it won't be.

Again, we're back to believing that we can build something great, and it already is great. I don't know about you, but I remember when we've lost retailers, I don't know, go down the list, Eaton's, Woolworth's, Canadian Airlines-- 

Shaun: Yes, Canada 3,000.

Arlene: It wasn't until we lost them that we went, "I really like that. I wish that we hadn't lost them." The reason is because we didn't support them. We didn't cheerlead them. We didn't hold them up as examples of greatness. We were so busy saying, "Why don't we have Target up here? We should have that because that's better." It really wasn't any better. We had something that was great to begin with. Do I think we can do it? Yes. Do I think it's going to be hard? Yes. Do I think we're going to have to sacrifice? Yes. Do I think it's going to be worth it? A thousand percent yes.

Shaun: Yes. It sounds like long game. We have to remain resilient and keep the belief there. Isn't it a thing in business? Spreadsheets don't care about belief. I keep hearing about these businesses or these young entrepreneurs who are coming up through the system. I'm just making something up, but imagine a kid coming out of Waterloo who has that special mathematical thing that's going to rewire how we use energy, and they get scooped up. They're gone to Boston. Now they're in the United States because of the salary. How do we ebb that flow to other markets from some of our greatest thinkers? I go back to thinking about the Avro Arrow.

Arlene: The DeLorean. That wasn't Canadian.

Shaun: No, I think the Avro Arrow was that terrible story of all of our aerospace engineers, and then they started NASA, and they were all Canadian.

Arlene: Look what happened

Shaun: Exactly.

Arlene: There's this saying in business that culture eats strategy for lunch. It actually does matter the belief you have. It is human nature to want to hold onto something and to fight for what you believe in, and to work hard for what you care about. You might be able to get a job doing something that's disenfranchising for you but pays really well. How happy are you going to be in that job? You’re not going to be happy, but you can make money.

Again, it depends on who you are as a human, but I think belief is actually very, very important. I think people like to understate it because they can't hold onto it. They can't grasp it. They can look at a spreadsheet, and they can calculate on the spreadsheet, and they can go, "Oh, the numbers don't work." But when the right person comes in and looks at those numbers and says, "You know what, I believe we can turn this around if we do these things and we hold onto what we're going to try and build." Suddenly, everybody goes, "I'm in. I'm going to support that."

Shaun: What are the biggest moves you think Canada can make in the next 10 years to really affirm our independence? Yes, we'll just start there because I also want to talk about the leadership of the country, not politically, but the business leaders and how it ties back to, especially in real estate?

Arlene: I think the biggest moves we can make is to invest in ourselves. The best advice my father ever gave me was to put any dollars I had into myself. In other words, to invest in my opportunities to be an entrepreneur and to put my dollars behind myself, whatever I had, and my time and my resources, not just my money. I think we can invest in ourselves aggressively. I think we can count and believe in the opportunity here by championing entrepreneurs and small businesses and by supporting them.

Something we can do, we can buy Canadian, we can encourage Canadian, we can invest in Canadian, we can believe in Canadian. Then the other thing is we can walk through those trade doors that are being opened. To your point on industry and what's happening, there's been opportunity to trade around the world for many years, for decades, through other prime ministers, through multiple prime ministers. You know what? They opened the doors to that trade by creating relationships and agreements. It didn't happen.

Industry didn't walk through those doors because it was so much easier to just go and do business in the States. How could I go to Europe or Asia? That's a long way away. That seems harder. I'm going to just go right to the neighbor to the south. There was a complacency that came with that, that industry owns. Again, we can believe in government all we want, and government did play a role and continues to play a role, and there's things that government needs to do.

Industry also plays a very big role, and that's a mindset at the top. That's somebody saying, when we have to procure an app to make sure our HR is working well, let's get a Canadian app. When we have to buy office supplies, let's buy from a Canadian company. Yes, that might cost you a little bit more, but in the long run, the value you're creating is huge, huge, huge. That's where you have to sacrifice a bit more. Maybe it's going to hurt your margins a bit, maybe it is, but what's worth it in the end?

Shaun: I think that's amazing, and we definitely have to start moving in that direction. I have these blind spots. There's so much that I don't know about what goes on the inside. When I think about the tech industry, industry in general, whether it's lumber or auto or tech, or even REALTORS^®, what are the things that they can be doing to really amp it up to keep everything Canadian and propel us forward?

Arlene: It gets back to what we were talking about earlier, Shaun, which is you have to believe it yourself as a leader if you want your organization to believe it. If you believe it yourself, then you have to make sure that you put processes and guardrails in place to ensure that your organization supports that belief. That means making choices on where you're going to procure from. Ensuring that you think first about how you can help your country first versus another nation's business.

Thinking about what you really want and what's important to you. Too many leaders are governed by quarterly reports because quarterly reports add up to public market. Value. The problem is that those quarterly reports can be short-term incentives to create certain behaviors that are actually helping your country. Really, it's a mindset. It is a belief. It is a value system. It's all of those things that we all don't really want to talk about because that seems like woo-woo over here, where a balance sheet seems so factual and straightforward.

I am telling you, business is emotional. Business is human-driven. People do business with people, not with names of companies. They do business ultimately with people that they like. When you talk, especially in a service industry type of business, or brands they understand the values of, and you're seeing more and more of that. I would say make sure you understand what your values are. Make sure you are reflecting those in the systems you set up in your companies and what you tell your companies, employees you believe in. Stop being driven by only one thing, which is the metric of dollars, and start thinking about what you want to leave in this country.

Shaun: Just so we can wrap it up here, maybe we can just talk a little bit about what your feeling is about the Canadian housing market. I don't know if that's something that you know a ton about or if you're invested in that much. What's your feeling, seeing as we are the Canadian Real Estate Association podcast? Talk to me a little bit about that, about what your top three or four things you think needs to happen to, I guess, get us out of this real estate crisis, the housing crisis, as people have proclaimed we are in.

Arlene: I think the notion of building affordable housing is not something that we should go, "Oh, the government shouldn't be in that business." I think actually what needs to happen is the government needs to enable independent businesses and entrepreneurial businesses to succeed in the housing sector. I think that's the goal of it. First of all, I have invested my whole life. I'm the generation where I was lucky enough that when I bought a home, I was able to sell it again and make money on it.

I've been able to do that many times in my life. I've had multiple properties. I've done that because there was always value being realized in the real estate that I was buying. In an effort for that to happen, because Canadians-- that was our nest egg. It was own a home and then eventually it'll be worth more. That's how I'll retire. My home is going to be worth more. In doing that, we created  this really difficult divide between could you afford to get into the housing market in the first place because the prices just kept going up and up and up.

I have a place in Vancouver, it's just so expensive. It's just mind-boggling to me. I think we've got to get to a place where you can have a nice home and you can do it on a decent salary, and you don't feel excluded from an opportunity to put shelter over your head. It's Mavlovian, right? Food, shelter, water. We need to be able to give those things to Canadians. I'm hopeful that building homes that are more affordable is going to help that. I think we also, in Canada, we've had so much land, and it was all buy the bigger, the biggest home you can, and you'll have property.

In Europe, they live in much smaller homes, they're very happy, they walk where they need to go. There's a lot of things that we could do differently to try and encourage people to be able to get into home ownership. I think we have to stop believing that our future lies in home ownership rather than saying our health and happiness lies in having a roof over our heads. When I say future wealth, I think, Shaun, your home could be worth more over time, and it should increase in value for sure, but it can't get so that it's unaffordable for the average Canadian.

Shaun: That's what I think about with younger people who are even contemplating the idea of purchasing a home. It's so difficult for them right now, and the renter market is even skyrocketing. Yes, I think it feels like some big changes need to happen to ease that. Then once we get through that, perhaps there's going to be more opportunity. Gosh, I like talking to you, Arlene.

Arlene: I greatly appreciate how you have stood up for our country and how vocal you are about respecting and supporting and encouraging people to be proudly Canadian. I really do. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Thank you, because we need more.

Shaun: You're speaking the same language. The things that I'm hearing come out of you, which perhaps other people may not really-- they might be surprised to hear this idea of belief, the idea of value. All of those things, they're idealistic. They're not capitalistic, if you will. It's not all about the bottom line. It's about the underlying energy and what it means to be "Canadian" because with that word comes a lot of things. I still think there's so much more value in that. It's about the humanity of it all. That's what Canada is striving to do. Of course, how can I not put that forward? Together, we are putting that message out, and I'm so happy to hear that coming out of you as well.

Arlene: Some nations are all about doing well as a person. This nation is all about doing well as a country. That doesn't preclude doing well as a person in addition to that. Thank you for that, thank you for.

Shaun: Unapologetic. That's what we need to continue to be. The naysayers, the people are like, "Elbows up." It's like, "Yes, okay, bye." We're going to continue the elbows up thing. This is the reason why. Come over here, Eslyn. You want to say hi to my friend, Arlene? Come over. I want to say hi. This is the future right here, Arlene. Come over. Eslyn, this is my daughter, Eslyn Willow.

Arlene: Eslyn, hi. How are you? Have you got a sucker? That looks really good. A lollipop?

Shaun: It's a lollipop. A Canadian-made, sugar-free lollipop.

Arlene: Wow. I love your hair. Are you in grade 12? Did I get that right? What grade are you?

Shaun: What grade are you in, Eslyn? What grade are you in?

Eslyn Willow: Pre-primary.

Arlene: Pre-primary. Do you like going to school?

Eslyn: Yes.

Arlene: School is so important. You probably are super smart.

Eslyn: Yes.

Arlene: Are you going to do something in Canada? Will you start a business one day?

Eslyn: Yes.

Arlene: Yes, cool.

Shaun: The future's looking good for you, right, Eslyn? Do you love Canada?

Eslyn: Yes.

Shaun: Go Canada, go.

Eslyn: Daddy, I went to Canada with you. I went to Canada with you.

Shaun: You did, yes.

Eslyn: And mommy, and Mattis.

Shaun: Mattis Maple Majumder. That's her name, Mattis Maple.

Arlene: I love that.

Shaun: I named her because of Canada, Mattis Maple.

Arlene: I love that.

Shaun: All right, Arlene, I think that's a great way to end our chat. Don't you, Eslyn? Yes. Thank you, Arlene. I love you.

Arlene: Eslyn, I love you too. Bye-bye.

Shaun: Come on now. How awesome was that conversation with the amazing Arlene Dickinson? I learned things about her I didn't know before. At first glance, when you think about, oh, she's a dragon on Dragon's Den, everything is about the bottom line. My biggest takeaway is that from her perspective, the two are hand in hand, values and belief about what you are, not about what you are not. Those are the energies that can drive us forward as a nation. It's always been there, but hearing Arlene speak about it so eloquently was inspiring, and I'm so stoked.

If you weren't stoked, then maybe you need to get stoked. Thanks so much for joining us today. I feel more proud to be Canadian than ever after that conversation. Of course, if you liked today's episode, please tell us by giving us a rating and a review, like, subscribe on whatever platform you digest your podcasts. Of course, REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet^® Creative. Thank you so much for joining me today. My name is Shaun Majumder, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.